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Discussion: Re Werner's discussion topic - Who bought all the paintings in Yogya?
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Jennifer.WD |
Re Werner's discussion topic - Who bought all the paintings in Yogya?
Feb 18 2008, 12:24 PM EST
Werner's absence from this warung is worrying.Perhaps he and Arahamaiani have played a joke on us all and this story is a media beat-up? Gary, it is really up to Werner to nominate his preferred channel of conversation. I think it is best if Werner runs the discussion, with contributions from those in situ who know - but I am more than happy to assist with questions. If he prefers the javafred@yahoogroups.com e-list, then that is where he should start. We will have the advantage of easy to access resources, that's all. We now have several new postings which are relevant - Arahmaiani's review of the Biennale, articles and commentary on Javafred.net, images and links. Gary's image page with questions and related pics, have provided a format for our discussion. I'm about to add a gallery link or two, but these venues are new to me. (eg. I observe that the Jogja Gallery is on-the-ball with trends - eg. sketches of place.... which must be popular). I would appreciate on the spot comment. And the pics of artists have revealed new faces and one familiar one. Are they happy to contribute? regards, Jennifer Do you find this valuable?
Keyword tags:
art market
contemporary
Jogja Biennale
Padang
paintings in Jogja
prices
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astri |
1. RE: Re Werner's discussion topic - Who bought all the paintings in Yog
Feb 18 2008, 12:57 PM EST
I wonder if the issue is that we don't have the 'data' to discuss this topic yet, beyond guessing what some of the answers might be, which a couple people have ventured on the yahoo groups email thread already.What we need is some hard core statement from someone who knows! I am not in Yogya often enough to know. Who knows something here? Sherlock? Watson? Judge Dee? (What's the Indonesian equivalent? a traditional or modern detective hero?) Well, let's see if this statement works (note: it is hypothetical) : "The Yogya art galleries are empty because a new generation of wealthy professionals have developed a habit of swooping down on the city known as the cultural centre of Java and picking up everything they can lay their hands on, because art auctions have become such a big business over the last decade and profits can clearly be made by hanging on to art for a few years and then selling it." Any nibbles, bites or leaps? The problem with that, to me, is: why wouldn't these buyers go directly to the artists, which would make them more money in the long run, and thus leave work on the walls in the galleries for tourists and less informed or economically driven collectors? Best wishes, Astri Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
2. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Who bought all the paintings in Yogya? !
Feb 18 2008, 3:16 PM EST
Hello Astri and Freders.I have posted some articles on Jogja Gallery to the artinesia & javfred navigation pane. This galley was founded in Sept. 2006 during the post-immediate chaos earthquake recovery phase. Dwi Marianto, Nunuk Ambarwati and Mikke Susanto are the director(s) and curator(s). From these articles, I understand that Jogja Gallery has the support of the Sultan and also has links with ISSI who wish to promote their students. In the absence of Yogya-based commentators, these articles are full of insights. I consider that a gallery like Jogja Gallery, http://jogja-gallery.com/ which curates thematically across a broad spectrum as Cemeti has done for contemporary artists, bridges the twin functions of informing the public and selling the artists' works, or at least representing their interests. In a strange way, the earthquake created a new public for Yogya's artists, if their work existed and was easily available. All the more reason for galleries in my view which should offer some security of provenance at very least for those new to collecting. And if these "new" markets have been ongoing, then, together with other less-desirable local pressures, I'm not surprised that so much art has been acquired. But the speculation which you describe is another matter. I don't think anyone can prevent that, especially as it has a desirable history in Indonesia!. regards Jennifer Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
3. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Who bought all the paintings in Yogya? ! contin
Feb 18 2008, 3:19 PM EST
The rest of my long comment.Speculation contin. Undoubtedly, very large "superstore" galleries like Toi Moi in Jakarta need a great deal of stock and are on the hunt for the latest trends for their domestic and international clientele. They have an interest in pushing new artists. But auction houses favour works by established artists rather than unknown ones - so I doubt that they are directly responsible for the "swooping". And again, in the auction game, provenance does matter. Direct dealing, unless with an artist of formidable reputation or personal connection, is not favoured. Judging from the latest Yogya Biennale, there were plenty of works, but art dealers like Tubagus complained that the event was so disorganised that he was discouraged. These days, the aesthetic of the clean white box has a lot of power when it comes to encouraging people to spend on art, especially in the midst of chaos. And I know that I would be reluctant to pry someone out of a half-reconstructed house and the awkwardness involved, seeking his/her art work. I consider there is a place for honest dealers and art brokers in Yogyakarta at present and I don't consider myself a rapacious person. cheers Jennifer PS: My imperfect thoughts are speculation of another kind. Do you find this valuable? |
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astri |
4. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 1
Feb 20 2008, 12:00 PM EST
Hi all, As a research data organizer (ugh - my 'archivist persona'!), I would like to repost Tjandra's, Cynthia's / Nurkholis', and other relevant messages here, since that way we get it in order. Not sure if the longer messages can be done, but - here goes. A.From: lorokidul3@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [javafred] Werner's topic Date: February 18, 2008 14:56:41 PST (CA) To: javafred@yahoogroups.com Dear Javafredders.... I have received a comprehensive reply from Mas Nurkholis, about our 'subject', which is pasted below.) Mas Nurkholis is a very astute man. He also sent me 3 very good images, of his new work (quite exciting stuff) - intended for his future exhibitions which he has mentioned at the end of his explanations. C. MAS NURKHOLIS' ANSWERS TO MY QUERIES ON BEHALF OF OUR FASCINATED GROUP: About art selling, it's not only happen in Jogya Gallery as well as Arahmaiani talk to Werner. Here are some new art galleries here in Jogja. This is some reason-in my observation- about art market happen in Jogya: 1. After chinese contemporary art exhibited in Indonesia, and get bigger respons, especially from indonesia auction house, the consequencies: some Ind. artists has been influenced, and indonesian art businessman get their comparison of art works with cheaper prices. 2. Indonesian contemporary art is growing fastly with various style and genre, even some fresh artistic development, and it make competitive with chinese art. Because of cheaper price with good visualisation, Indon. auction houses interested to pick them up in auctions. 3. The businessman finally prefer to "hunt" directly to artists, than to other businessman. Cheaper and they'll get more benefit when bring the works to auction. (to be continued) Do you find this valuable? |
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astri |
5. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 2
Feb 20 2008, 12:03 PM EST
4. The target of businessman is young artists, poor on experiences, need popularity, much more cheap, good looking art and they can give " advice", and good cooperation. Some of them now is being very popular, well known and with very high price in auction, left the senior artists behind on price ( but businessman buy much more cheaper from the young artist), and they play game on auction.5. Some senior artists with lower price is also kidnapped by businessman for auction, especially with popular names. And some of them were also sold in fantastic price in auction. 6. Not only happen in gallery, in artists studio too. Event when I make an Exhibition: Critisizing this sold out situation, entitled BUSER.COM in Taman Budaya, was sold out too. Crazy! BUSER.COM is my acronim of Butuh Uang Segera. com (auction), because I saw many repetitive exhibition in galleries(jogja, jakarta, bali and semarang) with same names of young artists whom their market is growing faster and higher in auction. ofcourse currator involved inside. WE ARE CRITISIZING THEM BUT THEY BUY....CRAZY! Now some of the artists who join in Buser.com exhib. were growing popular and sell tooooooooooooooooooooo. I HAVE BEEN MAKING NEW STARS, CYNTHIA. 7. Art Businessman is: Gallery owner, auction people( hunter), agen, collector, art dealer, owner of auction house, as team or privat. Legalisator: art currator of art writer! (continued, next) Do you find this valuable? |
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astri |
6. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Feb 20 2008, 12:05 PM EST
This is my observation of recent situation. Some of my works is also appear and sold in auction with good price, but it bought by someone before, and they try to sell them in auction. It is very different with art businessman who make a "deal and cooperation" with young artists for benefit and popularity. I knew it because some of them came to my house and talk about deal and cooperation: now depend on me following their way or be a poor artist........ Really, for this situation I confuse to decide and choose...................... Cynthia, this is my plan for solo exhibition on next May or June in Jakarta, in a new art gallery, Elegance Art Space. I hope I can show my best art works and build my own price, not "fake" price in auction, benefit for art businessman not the artist. And other planning of Exhibition in Jogya Gallery too with ASEAN artists, the link of my Artist Community, Seringgit, in next August 2008. Hope I have my power and energy.................... _______________________________________________________________ Astri Wright <astri@finearts.uvic.ca> wrote: RE: Re Werner's discussion topic - Who bought all the paintings in Yog I wonder if the issue is that we don't have the 'data' to discuss this topic yet, beyond guessing what some of the answers might be, ... ====================================================== POSTSCRIPT: THANK YOU SO MUCH for sharing your ideas and your own situation, and May you have the energy and the inspiration, Mas Nurkholis! And remember, none of us can live completely 'pure'... and we do have a responsibility to our families as well. Astri Do you find this valuable? |
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nurkholisx |
7. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Feb 22 2008, 4:14 AM EST
And thank you too Astri, that you give a wise respon for my sharing observation, via Cynthia.I also interested to tell that art market in Indonesia, in many cases, looked like as a design/ planned before as next strategy, buy the businessman. It's planned like a season: season of simple work, monochrom, even by the place where the artists come from,like Bali, but now artists from Padang West Sumatra step to main role on trend season. Here are so many Padangaholic: whatever genre of art work created by artist from Padang were sold, some art galleries in Jakarta and Jogjakarta, did some exhibitions with Padang( artist's origin but they live mainly in Jogya), from well kown artists, student, event un popular artists (live and stay in Padang, West Sumatra). The season now is growing harder more than hard rain that put Jakarta on floating water. Now Indonesian art market ( Jakarta again, mainly) floated by art "made by/ in Padang". Some other indication of Padangaholic is obviousely seen in auction: some unkown artists, unpopular artists, with minimum biodata and experience as artist, put on very high estimation of price ( more than Hery Dono"s and other Indonesian wellknown artists price), and sold.....!!! Padang, anything goes! whatever the artists reputation... For a plan of an art exhibition in Jakarta, I try to write an article for catalog about this kind of situation ( this is my continued article after Buser.Com's exhib.catalog). I also try to read distortion about contemporary art definition and its interpretation as " Benang Kusut". Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
8. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Feb 25 2008, 2:49 PM EST
"1) ..... but now artists from Padang West Sumatra step to main role on trend season. Here are so many Padangaholic: whatever genre of art work created by artist from Padang were sold, some art galleries in Jakarta and Jogjakarta, did some exhibitions with Padang( artist's origin but they live mainly in Jogya), from well kown artists, student, event un popular artists (live and stay in Padang, West Sumatra). The season now is growing harder more than hard rain that put Jakarta on floating water. Now Indonesian art market ( Jakarta again, mainly) floated by art "made by/ in Padang". Some other indication of Padangaholic is obviousely seen in auction: some unkown artists, unpopular artists, with minimum biodata and experience as artist, put on very high estimation of price ( more than Hery Dono"s and other Indonesian wellknown artists price), and sold.....!!! Padang, anything goes! whatever the artists reputation...hello Nurkholis and group I am back after a few email-free days at the beach and in my garden. Mas Nurkholis, I posted my first replies to your comments on the open javafred list some time back trying to establish a distinction between speculation and investment - if that is possible. Now, I would like to know more about your recent observations. 1) Your observation about the current trend to exhibit and collect work by artists from Padang. A few years ago, galleries in Yogya and Jakarta exhibited art by a group of Minangkabau artists, who had formed their own sanggar in Yogya when they were students. Like the Balinese some decades earlier, they felt that this was good for their confidence and helped them determine those artistic and cultural perspectives arising from their particular ethnic background which they then claimed distinguished their art. I imagine the same is now happening with artists from Padang, a large metropolitan city, very different to either Yogyakarta or Palembang - but maybe not so different in many ways to Jakarta. Padang has also seen amazing developments in regional and contemporary crafts and especially in music and modern dance - so, although thet are "running late", it is not surprising that people are now looking at the new art emerging from Padang. Of course, the situation becomes distorted when the artists concerned in these crazes have a very tenuous connection with place, but perhaps, the current interest also reflects Indonesia's multiculturalism. Marketers use the "Padang" or "Minang" focus to appeal to the large ethnic communities in Jakarta, seeking to appeal to a new generation of art afficianados and collectors regardless of consistency of quality or originality. But that will sort itself out in time. Be tolerant - share the gaze in the knowledge that excellent art always retains its integrity and its appeal! 2) "Tangled Threads" - please explain more! Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
9. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Feb 25 2008, 3:11 PM EST
I need new glasses! My comments above were written in haste.The first sentence in 1) paragraph 1, should read 1) Regarding the current trend to exhibit and collect work by artists from Padang, I noticed that a few years ago, galleries in Yogya and Jakarta exhibited art by a group of young Minangkabau artists, who had formed their own sanggar in Yogya when they were students. And paragraph 2, should read: Padang has also seen fresh developments in regional and contemporary crafts and especially in music and modern dance, so, although their artists are "running late", it is not surprising that people are now looking at the new art emerging from Padang. Of course, the situation becomes distorted when the artists concerned in these crazes have a very tenuous connection with place, but perhaps, the current interest also reflects Indonesia's multiculturalism. Art dealers use a focus on "Padang" or "Minang" to appeal to the large ethnic communities in Jakarta, seeking to entice a new generation of art afficianados and collectors regardless of consistency of quality or originality. ................. etc. I am really interested to silently hear Nurkholis explain what is behind the "distorted" view of contemporary art as "Benang Kusut (Tangled Threads or Confused Threads). Is this his view - or that of other artists, confused by the seemingly limitless demand for any art - regardless of style or quality. Is it that of dealers, buyers or critics when faced with so many diverse and divergent works defying standards and style? Please explain. thanks, Jennifer Do you find this valuable? |
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nurkholisx |
10. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Feb 28 2008, 2:42 PM EST
the market is because of trend, and nothing to do with understanding of muti culturalism of indonesia. Big celebration.So big celebration, event here are some blur definition of contemporary art: - currators' definitions were depend on the referencies they got each other, and too consumptive in foot note. forgetting to research what really happen on our recent art. -textual book theory versus dictionary: creativity ideology of contemporary art; anything goes; anything could be art versus temporal sense; now is contemporary, past at the time is contemporary, because no today yet. But today would be past if future is coming. Future at the time is contemporary. So, how about chicken and egg? -Contemporary identified with a kind of art genre: so other genre and unpopular one is not contemporary art, although the artists works' is very contextual with the recent situation. What is your idea about the phrase: Indonesia contemporary art Now? ( title of a book). -collecdol; businessman: contemporary art is depend on market now, more benefit more contemporary. This is some of my identification as Benang Kusut. Nurkholis Do you find this valuable? |
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nurkholisx |
11. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Mar 1 2008, 7:04 AM EST
Dear Jenny, last night I sent you two messages, but only one message sent.This my first message about Padangaholic: Yes you right, few years ago there are two groups of artists; Sanggar Sakato and Kelompok Jendela. Especially Kelompok Jendela, they got very good popularity, after long time struggling their art works in variouse exhibitions. Contemporary art issue bring them more popular and building their good market, their works identified as contemporary, though some of the artist in group were not really approach to contemporary art issue. ( it's not mean that tobe a contemporary artists should understand about contemporary art issue and its theory). I think, in Indonesia, identification of art work as contemporary closer to the genre/style than the artists' concept or their exploration and art vision. Because of the group popularity, their works influenced to the young artists, students, and they organised in Sakato. Member of Sakato also getting their apreciation and invited in some exhibition and sell well, event some galleries in Jakarta directly import the artists from padang and sell good. The surprise was happen in auction: some Padang artists getting their crazy prise ( sold in 80- 150 million rupiahs per work), event without a minimum biography and art achievement. What a genius. The concequencies now, art dealer or collecdol hunt them as sweet target. This kind of trend, actually a typical of previouse trend with Balinese artists as commodity in their main issue: Abstract Expressionism, whom also born popular and rich artists such as: Made Sukadana, Nyoman Sukari, Taman, Palguna, Sumadiyasa ( sold in billion rupiahs) etc. Also some Jawanese like Nasirun and Entang. Now the game is going to Padang's. That's why that I noted: ( continued to previouse mail). Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
12. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Mar 1 2008, 1:26 PM EST
"the market is because of trend, and nothing to do with understanding of muti culturalism of indonesia. Big celebration.Hello Nurkholis, I'm pleased to read both your replies because these are really quite complex issues and you have taken time to write in English. I have read your definition of contemporary art on the "What is contemporary art?" page and agree with you that it is self-aware art of the moment. The artist is aware of the avant garde position of their work both within its own context and genre (eg. Indonesian art) and a wider one (related to ideas, issues and artistic expression in the wider world of artmaking) . This awareness usually acknowledges current theories and debates in the visual arts, local and global, associated with their work, although you write that "in Indonesia, identification of art work as contemporary closer to the genre/style than the artists' concept or their exploration and art vision." Do you mean that this art may be "of the moment", concerned with issues to do with artists' particular media (paintings, sculpture, printmaking, installation, conceptual), but not overly concerned with current theoretical issues? And do then think that most of this art is not contemporary even though artists think it is? In fact, its true everywhere that many artists just enjoy working in the style which they find comfortable, regardless of whether it and their work are seen as contemporary. They and their collectors may see their work as "New", even though it may not challenge perceptions, thought and appreciation in the same way as truly contemporary art. But this doesn't mean to say their work doesn't come from the heart nor lack integrity. vis a vis other art of the time. I'm not sure why you are asking about the book title "Indonesia Contemporary Art Now". Who is the author or are you writing about this subject? Regards, Jenni Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
13. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Mar 1 2008, 1:43 PM EST
"Dear Jenny, last night I sent you two messages, but only one message sent.Hello again Nurkholis Like you, I must also write two replies - we all get caught out by the length limitation in these discussion boxes! I appreciate your short history of Sakato and Kelompok Jendela, and the context and nature of their art. I have only read a little about these groups - without seeing a great deal of their art - and find their emergence fascinating. As mentioned earlier, I am aware of the early history of such regionally-specific groups in Yogyakarta dating back to the 1970s, and it is interesting to see similar patterns emerging once more - including the market success after many years of effort. Of course, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that there were also, and still are, many other artists groups comprised of people from different parts of Indonesia . Do I understand you correctly that it is not necessarily the best and most contemporary of these artists who are doing so well at auction, but rather those who cater to popular "sweet" taste the best? And so, for the dealers and auctioneers, "contemporary" also means those who perform best in the market? regards Jennifer Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
14. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Mar 1 2008, 2:05 PM EST
"Actually, I meant to say some more here. it would be sad to think that market success was really an auctioneers or collectors sole definition of "contemporary". A boom is a boom and can be very unpredictable. And of course, market price is highly contextual and no basis for a definition of either excellence in art, nor its contemporaneity. Some works, eg. prints, may be truly excellent, but may take centuries to command the prices even inferior paintings may bring at auction. Sculptures of course have a size limitation in this kind of marketplace. And installation and conceptual art have almost no chance, despite excellence - unless it be the artist's planning sketches or duplicated photographic records of the event which are auctioned by their families. So many conceptual artists like yourself and your wife, and Tiarma Sirait for instance, rely on making other, more sellable forms of art from your big statement works and teaching. I began the thread on Tisna's page because it would be fantastic if some of the possible avenues for extending artist's works into community benefit or research projects could be explored with a reasonable percentage returning to the artist. Here, government funding and artists exhibiting within university contexts does encourage this kind of approach, although some of the research consequences have been pretty wild and even ethically unsound when re-applied in the community. Uugh!. But in Indonesia, there's not yet a tradition of this kind of sponsorship and it does require sensitive administration and even regulation. Well, that's enough "Benang Kusut" for one night from me. Thank you for these great brainteasing conversations, Salaam, Jennifer Do you find this valuable? |
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Jennifer.WD |
15. RE: Re Werner'stopic - Nurkholis thinks aloud, 3
Mar 4 2008, 3:21 AM EST
"Hello Nurkholis -Hello again Nurkholis - and others in this conversation, Continuing on with "Benang Kusut". I asked "I'm not sure why you are asking about the book title "Indonesia Contemporary Art Now". Who is the author or are you writing about this subject?" And then I noticed Gary had recently posted a new Carla Bianpoen Jakarta Post review of Enin Supriyanto's book launch of her title "Indonesian Contemporary Art Now" and exhibition of the same name on the www.Javafred.net site. Alas - as a review, Carla's article is very strong on critiquing the artists' works, but she says very little about the theoretical content of Enin's book. As I haven't read "Indonesian Contemporary art Now?" - I cannot comment. And I most certainly will order it for the Murdoch Library as I will do Carla's compendium of Indonesian Women Artists and Their Works But once again, I notice that few Indonesian writers are prepared to write Art Book reviews - one for Tjandra's C Magazine perhaps? Carla obviously couldn't do this for Enin, who was a contributing colleague to the recently published compendium - and who also did publish an on-line interview with Carla! This small group of writers and commentators certainly requires expansion and an even tougher skin than Gary's! So, Nurkholis, perhaps you should attempt this task of conceptual review for us - unless of course, you are also in the exhibition. In which case, you must find an artist's forum for your critique in Bahasa Indonesia - then translated into English for here. Smile! I am very keen to know more about this text and the ideas expressed and the disagreements or otherwise evident. regards Jennifer Do you find this valuable? |
